An Eye-Opening Conversation

Outreach at Adams State University in Colorado, April 2024

When our team went to Adams State University last spring, we had the opportunity to partner with two amazing local Christian ministries on campus. On the second day of outreach, Kalen, one of the ministry leaders, and I had a providential interaction with a student. “Thomas” was walking by our exhibit, and this is how our conversation went.

Andrea: Hi, do you have time to share your thoughts on the issue of abortion?

Thomas: Yeah, I am not completely sure what my thoughts are on this issue.

Andrea: That is totally fine. Do you think abortion should be legal for all nine months of pregnancy or just for a certain period of time?

Thomas: I am not sure.

Kalen showed him images of the unborn at different developmental stages (shown right).

Thomas: Okay, I would say abortion should be legal somewhere until four to twelve weeks of pregnancy.

Andrea: Do you think abortion should be legal for all circumstances or just certain circumstances?

Thomas: I think abortion should be legal for circumstances like rape. I have a friend who was raped, got pregnant, and had an abortion. My sister was raped as well.

Andrea: That is awful. I am so sorry. That must have been so difficult on your friend and sister.

After spending time acknowledging how terrible rape is, I paused for a second. I was trying to decide where to take the conversation next.

Kalen opened the brochure again to the images of the unborn at different stages of development.

Kalen: Did you say you think abortion should be legal until this time frame (pointing to about four to twelve weeks)?

Thomas: Yes.

Andrea: When do you think life begins scientifically speaking?

Thomas: I would say around four to twelve weeks.

Kalen and I were able to discuss the biology in depth and explain how we can determine that life starts at conception.

Kalen: If the unborn is growing, it must be alive. If it has human parents, it must be human. And living humans, or human beings like you and me, are valuable, aren’t they? *

Thomas: Yes, that makes sense.

With Thomas’s permission, Kalen showed him images of a first trimester abortion. I could tell that Thomas was greatly affected as he looked at the reality of abortion. Kalen did a beautiful job explaining how many women think abortion should be legal because they mistakenly believe it empowers them.

At one point Thomas said, “Thank you for having this conversation with me. This has really opened my eyes on this issue.”

Kalen took a minute to explain that he is with Christian Challenge, a Christian club on campus. This gave us an open door to ask Thomas about his spiritual background.

Thomas didn’t have much of a spiritual background, but Kalen had the opportunity to share the gospel in great detail with him. As the conversation progressed, it was incredible to watch him begin to realize his need for a Savior.

““I appreciate you having
this conversation with
me. No one has ever
talked to me about these
things before”

Before Thomas left, he said, “I appreciate you having this conversation with me. No one has ever talked to me about these things before.”

As I reflect on this conversation, it is a reminder that God is still at work. Exodus 4:12 says, “Now therefore, go, and I will be with your mouth and teach you what you shall say.” In interactions like the one I had with Thomas, it can be challenging to know how to steer the conversation. It’s comforting to rest in the fact that God calls us to be willing, obedient, and sensitive to the Holy Spirit’s leading. He does the rest.

Thank you so much for your prayers and support that make these conversations possible. Our team is gearingup for another semester of engaging students on universities and training pro-life advocates to engage others onthe issue of abortion. I would appreciate your continued prayers.

* Kalen used the Ten Second pro-life apologist developed by Steve Wagner.

A Better Conversation About Abortion

The controversial and sometimes personal nature of the abortion issue understandably makes it a topic that many people avoid discussing. Even though Roe v. Wade was overturned in 2022, the number of abortions in the United States has been increasing for the last couple years to around one million annually, according to the latest reports. The need for continued civil engagement with our fellow citizens is paramount. 

We rub shoulders every day with people who believe preborn children are different from us and therefore can be killed in the womb. Their deaths are shrugged off as a “woman’s choice” and we are told to believe that abortion is “healthcare.” 

One reason the injustice of abortion is incredibly difficult to combat is because we don’t have to physically see the dead bodies of these preborn children in our day-to-day lives. Their deaths are hidden from public view and their dead bodies discarded under the cover of “medical waste.” Whenever we do see images of the aftermath of abortion, we quickly push the images out of our minds or we criticize those who have the boldness to show abortion for what it is. When bad ideas and worldviews are not challenged and corrected vigorously and regularly by people, they lead to humans being dehumanized and killed. 

Conversations are an important place where minds begin to change. They are the place where citizens exchange ideas, and those ideas make their way into legislatures. Our world becomes a safer place for the vulnerable when human beings are valued from their conception. For some, starting a conversation about the preborn and abortion may seem terrifying, while for others, maybe it’s not challenging at all. Maybe for others it’s something in the middle. Regardless of where you find yourself in this mix, here are some tips I have learned from my own experiences that can make your conversations productive. 

Listen to understand and ask questions for clarification 

One of the reasons good conversations about abortion and other controversial issues are rare is because many people don’t take time to carefully listen to others. It is easy to enter discussions in debate mode ready to counter any incorrect idea the other person shares. When both people go in with their defenses up, each person plans what their next response will be instead of trying to understand what the person is saying and why she is saying it. People don’t respond well when it feels like a constant game of who can one-up the other person with a response that will show her how “dumb” or how “wrong” she is.  

If we take the time to sit down with someone else, side by side, and hear her story and her reasons for the beliefs she holds, we will have a better chance of making a more persuasive case for our beliefs when that time comes. We shouldn’t merely listen well though just because it can open up better opportunities to change her mind in the future. We should take the time to listen well to others because it shows the other person you see her, that what she is saying matters, and what she experiences matters. It shows her we care about her life. 

Asking good questions is also a crucial part of good conversations. Good dialogue will not happen unless you understand where this person is coming from. Asking questions shows we want to understand the other person better and shows we are being attentive and sensitive to important details about her background and beliefs. Here are some of the questions I find really helpful to ask in my own conversations: 

• What makes this issue important to you?

• What do you think about abortion?

• Where do you find yourself in the abortion debate? 

• What do you mean when you say pro-choice or pro-life? 

• How did you come to be pro-choice or pro-life?  

• Do you think abortion should be legal for all nine months of pregnancy or only a portion of that time? 

• How have conversations about abortion gone for you in the past?

• Have you always had this view or has it changed for you over time? If it’s changed, how did that change of view happen? 

• Do you know anyone that has had an abortion? 

Find common ground whenever possible

Despite our many differences, human beings have a lot in common. Finding common ground means taking the time to highlight agreement, and it creates a better place to discuss difficult things. Human beings by nature deeply desire community and love. We want to be respected, accepted, listened to, and protected. 

When we talk to a pro-choice person, the stakes for her changing her mind are high. She has to come to terms with the fact that she has been supporting the killing of innocent children in the womb. Maybe she has to face the fact that she killed their own child. Or maybe she helped someone else end the life of their child. It’s like she has to slide down a cliff with jagged rocks waiting for her at the bottom. We can help ease her fall and mitigate the pain and injury. We would want someone else to help us down that same cliff as gently as possible, so let’s do that for others by how we communicate with them. 

There are a tremendous amount of painful, weighty things people have to work through when faced with the opportunity to change their mind about abortion. Having to acknowledge that you have been wrong about something so important feels crushing for some. Remembering that we all have been mistaken about things in the past will help us humbly and patiently stand alongside another person as they make these shifts in their view.

I recommend reading Common Ground Without Compromise by Stephen Wagner to get practical ideas on how you can find common ground in conversations with those who disagree with you.

Generally use the labels the other side prefers

It’s helpful to use the preferred labels each side uses to describe their view. This might sound more controversial up front. Here’s what I mean. Some pro-lifers in conversation with a pro-choice person insist that she is “pro-abortion” even if the person has just said she is “pro-choice.” When she says she is not “pro-abortion” the pro-life person asks her what choice she is for and when she says something like the “right of a woman to choose abortion,” the pro-life person says she is “pro-abortion.” This rhetorical move is not helpful if your goal is good conversation that can lead to a changed mind. Imagine how it feels for pro-lifers when people insist we are just “pro-birth.” We don’t like it when people reframe our position in a way that sounds foreign to us. People are not going to be as open as they would be otherwise if they feel like they are just being cornered and told by others what their view is. 

It’s not because I don’t think labels or ways people describe themselves are important. I agree the words we use to describe ourselves should be accurate, and I can understand the desire to attack the “choice” language since a preborn child’s death shouldn’t be reduced to such a positive-sounding sentiment. 

We have so many problems to deal with and so many bad ideas to dismantle in conversations about abortion. I look at it this way: there are primary and secondary issues. The primary issue is that abortion kills a human being, and I want to help people understand that. If that means I have to tolerate or ignore the “choice” language, I am willing to do that. The conversation should be focused on the humanity of the preborn child and how their rights are gravely violated by abortion. If we do this, the labels will fix themselves in the long run. 

We have a limited amount of time with the people in front of us, and it is important to use that time in the best way possible. I want them to get a little closer to understanding the violence and evil of abortion. I have found I have a much better chance of doing that when I ignore the inaccurate aspects of their labels and focus on the humanity of preborn children. If I helped the person have a more accurate label but did not help her have a more accurate view of the preborn, I don’t think I used my time very wisely.

Conclusion

Talking about abortion doesn’t have to be as difficult as it may seem. If you use these tips, I’m confident you will have good conversations. Some of my early conversations were not productive because I didn’t use these skills, and I said things I shouldn’t have. While I wish I could go back and do some of those conversations over again, I’m also thankful I didn’t just give up and walk away. 

It’s important that we are willing to make mistakes in conversations because the fact that we are making mistakes is a normal part of engaging others in important conversations in the pursuit of justice. Don’t let the fear of bad conversations keep you from saying anything at all. Let those conversations that didn’t go so well in the past propel you to study more, seek advice from mentors, and be willing to try again. The more you do that, the better advocate you will become. 

To get trained to utilize these skills in difficult conversations, consider attending a Justice For All pro-life apologetics seminar. If there is no in-person option that works for you, consider taking our online Love3 Workshops. 

Only Two Questions?

Alan Shlemon has been one of my closest friends since the late 1990s, but after all these years, his answer surprised me. Late last year, our outreach team was about to sit down to dinner in his home, and I asked a version of this question: “What’s the minimum amount of training you think someone needs in order to have a successful conversation on a difficult topic?”

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Alan Shlemon of Stand to Reason (right) interacts with a student at JFA’s “Stop and Think” outreach at UCLA in May 2016. Although we don’t know everything Alan was covering in this conversation, we do know for certain he was employing the two questions what and why and modeling the approach we discuss in this post.

Alan is a speaker at Stand to Reason (www.str.org), and like the trainers at Justice For All (JFA), he regularly equips Christians to talk about the most thorny and complicated topics in the culture. I expected Alan to say something like “four or five hours” since just one topic can bring up a myriad of facts, questions, and arguments, let alone all of the related topics people inevitably also raise.

Instead, Alan said he really only needed just a few minutes to teach people to use the Columbo Tactic. He was referring to asking questions that gather information and request reasons. (STR’s Greg Koukl named this tactic after the beloved, bumbling 1970’s detective who solved his crimes by asking questions.) That was it? All people need is to learn to ask a couple of questions?

I quickly realized, though, that Alan was simply reminding me of what I and other JFA trainers have been teaching for years: “Learn to ask two questions, and you can make an impact in any conversation on any topic with anyone anytime anywhere.” What two questions? The same ones to which Alan was referring: what and why. These questions help us gather information (What do you believe? What did you mean by that?) and ask people to give reasons for the claims they make (Why do you believe that? How did you come to that conclusion?). These two questions also “get us out of the hot seat and into the driver’s seat of the conversation,” as Greg Koukl has often said.

Now, I don’t mean you can ask these questions in any way and expect them to create productive dialogue. Obviously, we need to follow these questions up with “listening to understand.” We’ve also found that accompanying these questions with a desire to find common ground (“I agree… I think you’re making a good point”) and an attitude of humility (“I know I’m mistaken about some things, and you might have insight that will shed light on which of my beliefs are false”) helps the two questions make their impact. In this way you can also create a context in which the person is more likely to be open to a third type of question that challenges his or her beliefs.

So, if you’re afraid to engage friends or family in conversation about difficult topics, I suggest you focus on developing your ability to ask these two questions, what and why. How? Start practicing. What’s great about these questions is that you don’t have to do the heavy lifting. You only have to figure out what words need to be clarified and what parts of the person’s view are unclear (ask some question that begins with “what did you mean…?”). Then once you have the person’s view clarified, you can think of her view like the roof of a house. What does a roof need in order to be a roof? Walls. So you then ask the person to build walls that support her roof (ask some question that begins with “why do you believe…?” or “how did you come to this conclusion?”).

You can even practice this approach and these questions on topics that don’t have to do with controversial issues; I’m referring to the conversations you have with the people closest to you that become tense and frequently devolve into hurt feelings. Instead of assuming you know what your spouse or child or friend meant, ask “what did you mean when you said…?” Instead of assuming you know how she would support her view, ask “what reasons for this view are persuasive to you?”

I’m confident you’ll find that you can create productive conversations you never thought possible. In fact, people frequently report to our team during our campus events things like, “This was the best conversation I’ve ever had.” Sure, members of the JFA team have a lot of experience, and I consider them experts. But even someone with no experience, a conversation beginner, can experience the same extraordinary results. You can start today to develop these skills. Just focus on asking these two questions!

Thank you for partnering with us as we help pro-life advocates and Christians get started changing hearts and minds with simple tools like these.

Note: This letter is the third in a series of letters on conversation skills we teach volunteers that help them get started having conversations and encourage them to stay active. See the previous letters in the series:

• “Be a Playmaker” (jfaweb.org/feb-2023)

• “Thinking about the Unborn for the First Time” (jfaweb.org/may-2023)

See Other Letters in this Series

No Regrets

Impact Report - October 2022

For most people, talking about moral or spiritual matters with other people is daunting when we have no knowledge of how they might respond. But what about when people have shown us that their views definitely conflict with ours? Even worse, what if someone has demonstrated he or she is close-minded or has even made mocking comments about the pro-life position or Christianity or people who believe in Jesus? We don’t want to “cast our pearls before swine” so should we step into the conversation even if we have reasons to believe it won’t be fruitful? In this Impact Report, JFA dialogue artist Andrea Thenhaus describes a recent conversation that illustrates why our answer to this question is usually “Yes!” She learned that we can have misconceptions about people and that conversations can go far better than we predicted. -Steve Wagner, Executive Director

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Towards the end of the second day of our Texas State University outreach this month, a group of four people started looking at the free speech board. I stood nearby for a few minutes listening. They were making inappropriate and crass remarks about the comments they were reading.

Andrea (right) interacts with a student at Fort Lewis College in Durango, CO in April 2022.

At first, I did not want to talk with these students. What if they decided to direct their rude comments toward me? I had several excellent conversations that day, and I did not want to end on a discouraging note.

Then I decided I wanted to finish the day having no regrets. If they did not want to engage, or if the conversation did not go well, at least I would know I had done my part by trying to dialogue with them.

I asked them if they had any thoughts on the issue of abortion. They started by saying that they are pro-choice and then began sharing with me why they thought abortion should be legal. Christy, a member of the Students For Life club on campus, asked if she could join the conversation. Our conversation went something like this:

Sophia: I have seen so much suffering in this world. I just want to prevent kids from having to experience suffering. I think abortion should be legal for that reason. It would be more compassionate to end the life of the unborn when they are not conscious or aware of what is going on.

Jessica: There are many children suffering in foster care. We need to change the foster care system if abortion is going to be illegal.

Christy: Can I ask you a question? Imagine that there is a group of kids in the foster care system. Would it be okay to kill them to help relieve the suffering they are experiencing?

They agreed that would not be right, but then they noted differences between these kids and the unborn:

Jessica: At that point they are already in this world.

Sophia: The unborn is different, and I just want to prevent the child from experiencing pain and suffering.

Jessica: I have two siblings who have been in the foster care system. It was very hard on them.

In that moment, I sensed that they had a story to share. I realized that I needed to just listen.

Sophia: I have had a hard life. Many people in my life have died. Yesterday, my friend told me that her mom recently passed away after she had been missing. I also attended a school where we were frequently on lockdowns due to shootings. At first it was terrifying to attend school every day knowing that I might get shot. I eventually stopped fearing death and accepted that I could die. As the conversation continued, both of these young women expressed that they don’t have hope.

Andrea: Thank you for sharing. Everyone has a story, and it is important to listen to one another. I want people to know that I care about them. You never know what someone is going through or has gone through in their life.

Sophia: I can tell that you care.

She started to tear up, and I reaffirmed my concern for her. After a few minutes, it seemed helpful to note why we were on campus and how that related to listening to individual stories.

Andrea: JFA is a pro-life organization. The heart behind our outreach is to create healthy and productive dialogue about abortion. That means it’s important to hear where each person is coming from.

Sophia: I agree that it is important to talk about this issue. We can bring both sides to the table and listen to each other.

Andrea: This is the way I look at it: If the unborn are living human beings like you and me, then abortion is taking a life. I think we need to protect the unborn. If the unborn are not human beings, then it does not matter if someone gets an abortion. You mentioned earlier that abortion is a choice. I think choice is good as long as it does not harm another human being. This is why I am pro-life, but I think that pro-life should not end at birth.

They looked at each other and then Sophia exclaimed,

Sophia: I can’t believe you just said that! You are the first person I have heard say that pro-life should not end at birth. Wow! This has been a groundbreaking conversation.

As we continued talking, my heart ached for them and their lack of hope. I felt prompted to share the gospel because I know that true hope is only found in Jesus Christ. I asked a question to begin: “What gives you hope?”

We then launched into a conversation in which I was able to share in detail what Christ has done for us. Finally I said, “I share all this with you because I care about you. There is not much hope in this world, but I find my hope in Jesus. I am confident that one day I’ll go to heaven, and that gives me hope!”

Throughout our conversation, and especially during our discussion of spiritual things, Sophia and Jessica were exceptionally receptive and appreciative.

As the conversation came to a close, I thanked them for taking the time to talk. They replied, “No. Thank you. We greatly appreciated this conversation and all that you shared. So thank you!”

I thank God for allowing me to see a window into His work in their hearts. I did leave this conversation with no regrets, and I was grateful for their remarkable shift in attitude. I am reminded that not all our interactions will go like this one. Often, we do not get to see the fruit of our labor. No matter the outcome, we can focus on being faithful to plant seeds and let God do the rest. I pray that you take the opportunities God gives you in the coming weeks so you also can say, “I have no regrets” and give thanks to Him for whatever results He brings.